Curse

Lordhelmos · Mar 08, 2007, 10:14 PM // 22:14

There is too much confusion on how this works. We should have been better informed on all of this. Anyhow, half of HA is confused as hell on how killcount works so I want to post several questions on here that maybe some experienced players can answer. Perhaps this analysis can shed some light with some of the problems in halls. One of which is lack of information

1.) How does degen factor into killcount? Does degen simply weaken players so that they are easy killsteals by another team?

2.) ANET has denied the possibility of killsteals, is this statement bogus? If kill steals are possible how is it done?

3.) What kind of builds or playstyle does killcount promote in HA? Does killcount encourage spiking for kills? What builds or playstyle does killcount omit or render useless?

4.) What aspects of killcount are bugged or misleading?

5.) If you dislike killcount then what reasons do you have for hating it?

I want to keep this concise and informative. Please do not turn this into a flamefest, simply answer the questions by number with the best of your knowledge. I intend for this to help us understand killcount, and if it really needs to go, we will discover why here.

baaba · Mar 08, 2007, 11:57 PM // 23:57

1. If it is 1 vs 1, degen build will have its use. If it is 3 teams match, degen build is the one being gang up.

2. Kill steal is not only possible, but also very easy. Let's say the target has 500 HP. One team is using a warrior and attack the target down to 200 HP then suddenly the other team comes up with fire ele and overkill the target. The other team gets the kill because the fire ele did more damages to the target than the warrior. That's why there's so many fire ele doing AoE damages in HA.

3. Kill count promotes AoE high damage build. It also promotes spell casting build because you do not have to run over a certain distance to kill a target.

4. Ghostly Hero is bugged. Sometimes he will run away by himself after he resurrect if no one is around to click on him.

5.Above reasons.

Either make it 1 vs 1 or remove it completely.

You just got tomahawked · Mar 09, 2007, 12:13 AM // 00:13

I hate kill count because if your ghosy dies it gets ganked when ressed over and over and its gg.

Yunas Ele · Mar 09, 2007, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

1.) How does degen factor into killcount? Does degen simply weaken players so that they are easy killsteals by another team?

If I'm not mistaken degen basically just counts as damage. So say you have... 5 pips of degen on a target (which is 10 damage per second, if my memory serves me correctly). Now lets say said degen lasts on your target for 5 seconds. That basically counts as 50 damage done to the target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

2.) ANET has denied the possibility of killsteals, is this statement bogus? If kill steals are possible how is it done?

As much as I love to accuse anet of being full of **** (which they are, btw), I think they've got this one right. Whoever did the most damage to the target within the last 10 seconds gets the kill. I think the first couple days of kill count, there were glitches but after that I have never had a problem with this. Except for the fact that life stealing damage doesn't count. So if you did most of your damage to the target via life stealing (hi blood spike?) then it sucks to be you. Still if your non-life stealing damage is more than the enemies damage to the target (which usually isn't the case for b-spike, unless they spike down a full target that hasn't been touched in 10 seconds) then they get the kill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

3.) What kind of builds or playstyle does killcount promote in HA? Does killcount encourage spiking for kills? What builds or playstyle does killcount omit or render useless?

It promotes builds that can run in, get quick kills and then back out. Spiking is a viable option for this, however its not the only one. The oh so popular 2 sin 2 ele 2 monk also kicks ass and takes names in kill counts because it can deal a large amount of damage (a lot of AoE) in a short period of time and then retreat out, after scoring numerous kills on the team thats getting ganked. It basically discourages any build that can't do this. Degen is is one of the builds being discouraged. Even if you have 10 pips of degen, thats 20 damage per second. Thats 25 seconds to kill a 500 hp target (and people generally have more than that) and thats assuming it never gets healed. Degen is great for damage over time in 1v1 matches but in terms of dealing a crap load of damage in a quick period of time? Epic fail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

4.) What aspects of killcount are bugged or misleading?

Bugged? Sometimes when ghost resses, if hes not grabbed right away, he may leeroyyyyy into the middle of no where. It can sometimes cost you the match too, which is frustrating. Misleading? Well I can tell you ANet was mislead into thinking kill count was good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

5.) If you dislike killcount then what reasons do you have for hating it?

I honestly just don't find it that fun to play. Other people have written freakin' essays on this though, so you can check those out I guess...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

Please do not turn this into a flamefest, simply answer the questions by number with the best of your knowledge.

Hello, welcome to Guild Wars Guru: Heroes Ascent section. 99% of threads here turn into flamefests.

Quote:

Originally Posted by baaba

1. If it is 1 vs 1, degen build will have its use. If it is 3 teams match, degen build is the one being gang up.

No. Who gets ganked first is pretty much decided single handedly by your positioning. That, or if the two other teams are friends/alliance/guildies/whatever. Then whoever just has the most kills gets ganked, but if they have good positioning and lots of running skills, then another team (with worse positioning) may still get ganked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by baaba

2. Kill steal is not only possible, but also very easy. Let's say the target has 500 HP. One team is using a warrior and attack the target down to 200 HP then suddenly the other team comes up with fire ele and overkill the target. The other team gets the kill because the fire ele did more damages to the target than the warrior. That's why there's so many fire ele doing AoE damages in HA.

How is that kill stealing? If the fire ele did 300 damage, and the warrior only did 200 damage then the kill rightfully goes to the fire ele's team. He did more damage to the target. Maybe I'm missing something but thats certainly not kill stealing in my books.

coleslawdressin · Mar 09, 2007, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

2.) ANET has denied the possibility of killsteals, is this statement bogus? If kill steals are possible how is it done?

It is possible that the system is buggy. It is too difficult to actually perform tests when the other teams won't cooperate. Even if it does work properly as they said, it isn't a fair or fun system.

Remember how Gaile said that an option to log out just to the character screen was a technical impossibility and was a feature intended to protect our account. What do we have now? That is about how much we can trust her to tell us the truth. Months of polls for 8v8 and she said that they would make a decision over a week ago, now not a single word.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

1.) How does degen factor into killcount? Does degen simply weaken players so that they are easy killsteals by another team?

Basically degen teams are gimped by killcount, more specifically that kill counts are 3-way. If you disease a target for 19 seconds only the last ten seconds matter for how kils are scored. The target has lower life and the fire ele that comes along to steal your kill does a higher proportion of damage compared to your remaining degen.

It is possible that "degen damage" is given some sort of multiplier to make it more fair. It hasn't seemed to be the case when I have actually played but the following information from Izzy's colleague makes me think it:

First he said that "disease is actually calculated 'correctly'." (whatever correctly is)

Second he said that degen was calculated "some funky way" and that he couldn't elaborate on the details.

FoxBat · Mar 09, 2007, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

How is that kill stealing? If the fire ele did 300 damage, and the warrior only did 200 damage then the kill rightfully goes to the fire ele's team. He did more damage to the target. Maybe I'm missing something but thats certainly not kill stealing in my books.

Not that I necessarily think this is a "bad thing", but a fire ele probably has to wait 15-20 seconds before he can dump another 200 more damage while the warrior just has to hit you 4 or 5 more times. Skills like a single savvanah heat that can't score kills alone become more powerful when you've got the other team knocking them down into it's damage range with some moderate pressure.

Randomway Ftw · Mar 09, 2007, 12:51 AM // 00:51

1. Kill count has made a condition or hex degen style team ineffective, other direct damage teams can easily get quick kills why with a degen pressure style team it takes time to get kills, this is made even worse by the fact that teams just run around in circles furtherly mitigating the pressure.

2. What baaba said about killsteal is 100% correct.

3. Killcount promotes promotes builds that can pump out lethal bursts of damage as quickly as possible, yes it does promote spike builds. Killcount makes heavy shutdown builds nearler useless, because the shutdown directed toward a teams defense will just assist the 3rd team in getting kills, condition and hex degen builds are ineffective.

4. Ghostly running out bug is pretty broken, the fact that kill count is supposed to be "fun" is misleading.

5. Killcount never should have been implemented in teh first place, it fixed something that wasn't broken.

baaba · Mar 09, 2007, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

How is that kill stealing? If the fire ele did 300 damage, and the warrior only did 200 damage then the kill rightfully goes to the fire ele's team. He did more damage to the target. Maybe I'm missing something but thats certainly not kill stealing in my books.

Yes. You misread it. I said the warrior did 300 damages and bought the target down to 200 HP. After that the other fire ele came in and did 300+ damages and OVERKILL the target.

The target doesn't have 700 HP in the first place but the system is only calculating who did the most damage within a certain period of time. That's why the fire ele stole the kill.

You understand now?

Yunas Ele · Mar 09, 2007, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by baaba

Yes. You misread it. I said the warrior did 300 damages and bought the target down to 200 HP. After that the other fire ele came in and did 300+ damages and OVERKILL the target.

The target doesn't have 700 HP in the first place but the system is only calculating who did the most damage within a certain period of time. That's why the fire ele stole the kill.

You understand now?

Ya I do. Didn't realize it was like that. My apologizes.

lishi · Mar 09, 2007, 02:42 AM // 02:42

the probrem is the damage is not a good indicator of who made the kill in a 3 team match.

few example

a warrior make the chain knockdown on a kiting target while 2 ele from other team nuke him.

your mesmer powerblock the enemy healer ...

etc etc etc

lishi · Mar 09, 2007, 02:52 AM // 02:52

btw i'm not sure if degen count at all.

how many time the enemy ghost died with degen and you didnt got the morale?

baaba · Mar 09, 2007, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

Ya I do. Didn't realize it was like that. My apologizes.

No problem. Many players misunderstand the kill count system. Whenever they see they are hitting more than half the health bar off a target, they think they got the kill. That's not the case.

Even if the target has 500 HP and you already made 450 damages on him/her, as long as the other team can spike the target with more damages than you within certain period of time, they get the kill.

You do not get the credit for being able to shut down or snare the team. You also have disadvantage right in the beginning when you come in the match with fewer morale boost than the other teams. If you go to the center, you are most likely to be gang by both teams.

The designer that create kill count miss lots of factors that come into play during a match when it comes down to 3 teams fight.

Im In A Build · Mar 09, 2007, 03:32 AM // 03:32

1.) How does degen factor into killcount? Does degen simply weaken players so that they are easy killsteals by another team? i think yunas has the right answer for this

2.) ANET has denied the possibility of killsteals, is this statement bogus? If kill steals are possible how is it done? the team that did the most dmng in 10 seconds on the target gets the kill thats it

3.) What kind of builds or playstyle does killcount promote in HA? Does killcount encourage spiking for kills? What builds or playstyle does killcount omit or render useless? i think it promotes a tactical playstyle where positioning actually matters something that ha hasent seen before. alot of people say it promotes gank but honestly theres a huge chance that if your getting ganked your just in terrible positioning . as for builds it promotes dmng heavy builds

4.) What aspects of killcount are bugged or misleading?none i think but as for the whole ghostly thing he will run to the spot he dies after he resses and no one has picked him up. if you let your ghost get farmed because you dont pick him up its your fault for being stupid

5.) If you dislike killcount then what reasons do you have for hating it?
i dont dislike it Oo

masta_yoda · Mar 09, 2007, 11:18 AM // 11:18

ive said this before but as said by fellow players and myself there are way more factors contributing to a kill then pure dagame i.e

black out monks, spirits like nr tranq qz etc...
All anet did is just make the meta pure damage and they forgot about pressure builds.

LifesRestorer · Mar 09, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01

1.) How does degen factor into killcount? Does degen simply weaken players so that they are easy killsteals by another team?
seeing as degen is made to do damage over time, the 10 second rule rends this useless. i am also unsure about the effects of conditions (do they count as your damage or just an unknown source because every team could in theory deal this condition)

2.) ANET has denied the possibility of killsteals, is this statement bogus? If kill steals are possible how is it done?
Nope they got this right, you cant killsteal. but you can get ganked.

3.) What kind of builds or playstyle does killcount promote in HA? Does killcount encourage spiking for kills? What builds or playstyle does killcount omit or render useless?
spiking and high AoE with no ability to do anything else other than kill is highly promoted here. Pressure builds with degen, or builds that drop damage to shut down other characters are at a high disadvantage here. on this game scenario, it is pretty much highest damage output wins. (oh how much fun old school IWAY would have if it wasnt nerfed

)

4.) What aspects of killcount are bugged or misleading?
Ghost turning into leeroy doesnt really help.

5.) If you dislike killcount then what reasons do you have for hating it?
Don't get me wrong, i don't hate kill count. in 6v6, its a whole lot better than the uber holding crap where no one kills anything and the only thing ever to die is a spirit.
But the truth is that it isn't a fair mode of play because it promotes ganking, but with the current situation of having HA as 6v6, there isnt really any other alternative.

The only option in my eyes is either to go back to 8v8 and remove the count, bringing back altars or it stays as it is, with kill count implimented in 6v6

taxed · Mar 09, 2007, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Hmmm...what if the Killcount mechanic was changed? While this thought is not refined...

1) Change the counting mechanism to number of health points removed. This means if you are applying degen to a target, you get 2 points per second per pip of health regeneration that you apply (2 health points per second degeneration). Also points can only be scored until target's health reaches 0. This means if you hit a target who has 50 health for 500 damage, you only get 50 points.

2) Add a point scoring system for other things such as energy denial (perhaps 2-3 points per energy removed?). You could add points for things like interrups, knockdowns and other pressure based skills. This way all teams could theoratically have a fair shot at earning points.

Make the score needed something like first team to 7500-10,000 or so. No timer. This should stop teams from running around. It should also end ganking, kill stealing and all the other junk people hate about kill-count maps.

LifesRestorer · Mar 10, 2007, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by taxed

Hmmm...what if the Killcount mechanic was changed? While this thought is not refined...

1) Change the counting mechanism to number of health points removed. This means if you are applying degen to a target, you get 2 points per second per pip of health regeneration that you apply (2 health points per second degeneration). Also points can only be scored until target's health reaches 0. This means if you hit a target who has 50 health for 500 damage, you only get 50 points.

2) Add a point scoring system for other things such as energy denial (perhaps 2-3 points per energy removed?). You could add points for things like interrups, knockdowns and other pressure based skills. This way all teams could theoratically have a fair shot at earning points.

Make the score needed something like first team to 7500-10,000 or so. No timer. This should stop teams from running around. It should also end ganking, kill stealing and all the other junk people hate about kill-count maps.

it's a nice idea, but it would still end up in i have 10 trillion nukes therefore i have all points ever

Mr Seph · Mar 10, 2007, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Quote:

Sometimes when ghost resses, if hes not grabbed right away, he may leeroyyyyy into the middle of no where.

i don't know if you know it, but he just runs to the place where he died.
Could see this as some sort of bug, but the guild thief in gvg does the exact same thing.

Quote:

Hmmm...what if the Killcount mechanic was changed? While this thought is not refined...

1) Change the counting mechanism to number of health points removed. This means if you are applying degen to a target, you get 2 points per second per pip of health regeneration that you apply (2 health points per second degeneration). Also points can only be scored until target's health reaches 0. This means if you hit a target who has 50 health for 500 damage, you only get 50 points.

2) Add a point scoring system for other things such as energy denial (perhaps 2-3 points per energy removed?). You could add points for things like interrups, knockdowns and other pressure based skills. This way all teams could theoratically have a fair shot at earning points.

Make the score needed something like first team to 7500-10,000 or so. No timer. This should stop teams from running around. It should also end ganking, kill stealing and all the other junk people hate about kill-count maps.

It already takes anet 2 months to nerf 5 skills from gimmick builds, if you would want this to be introduced, you'll have to wait till gw3 probably :P

Lord Natural · Mar 11, 2007, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by taxed

Hmmm...what if the Killcount mechanic was changed?

It's irrelevant what constitutes a kill. The nature of the game-type demands an engage and retreat strategy, at least in a 3 team scenario. Engage, spike what you can, retreat before the pressure becomes too great. In this sense, you almost have to run a build with high pressure/spike capability, which removes a great deal of options in creating a build. Even if eles or assassins are demolished with the nerf bat, the next greatest build with spike potential will take their place and no progress will be made. It's just a retarded mechanic in general, which draws heavily from alliance battles. Didn't anet learn anything from the abysmal failure that was Factions?

If you adjust the kill-count mechanics the nature of the objective will still favor the spike, due to the tremendous amount of kiting teams are forced into.

If you make kill count maps 1v1 then it's just pointless, as 90% of the time the team with the most deaths will end up losing a 1v1 anyway.

What's left?